Posts by Island Man

22

Getting JWs To Think By Using Their Own Tactics On Them.

by Island Man in

i've been thinking that an effective way to expose the idiocy and vacuousness of jwism is to use it right back on them when they come to your door.

say you're a fader and you've moved to the territory of a different circuit where the jws there don't know your jw background.

when they come knocking at your door, just put on the jw mindset and pretend to yourself that the jws at the door are not jws but members of a "false religion.".

Island Man

Thanks for all the responses.

steve2: You credit JWs with the ability to dispassionately weigh up the householder's answers. Good luck!
It might work if the JW has a reasonable level of flexibility in their thinking. Unfortunately, they will more than likely view anyone else speaking that way as being "arrogant and closed-minded".

You're probably right, steve2. But the way I look at it: If blatant examples of JW reasoning can be used by a householder to reject the JW message without the JW noticing the error of JW reasoning then such a JW is willfully blind and deserves to be in the dysfunctional, dystopian Watchtower environment.

12

A flaw in JW logic on sin and transmision

by _Morpheus in

the "special talk" this year was about family happiness.

as always seems to be the case it was a bait and switch job since the talk had actually nothing to do with how to achive family happiness and everything to do with jw doctrine on why familys are unhappy.

mine is unhappy because of jw doctrine but thats the implied irony in attending the sunday indoctrination i suppose.. that said, the speaker trotted out the oft used jw illistration of a dented bread pan to describe why and how sin was passed from one human (adam) to another (all of us).

Island Man

JWs like to use the genetic illustration to avoid confronting the true ugly reality of what the bible shows.

JWs - Watchtower - love to turn a blind eye to what the bible says in preference for sugar-coated spin, when the bible says something unpalatable to Watchtower doctrine or modern ethics. A perfect example of this was found in last week's bible reading. An elder, commented on the passage that says a bad spirit from Jehovah terrified Saul. He basically denied what the text said by saying the text means something other than what it is saying, and the Watchtower explanation he gave clearly did not fit the context of what the text was saying. It was just so transparently dishonest - a willful denial of a plain scripture. That's one of things that infuriates me the most about JWism, Watchtower's penchant for willful dishonesty.

The sin of Adam was actually passed on to all humans as a curse. Adam was essentially cursed by God when he sinned. Because all his offspring was in his loins at the time, the curse placed on Adam also came upon them. Another way of looking at it is that Adam didn't sin by himself. All of humankind sinned with him because all his offspring were still in his loins when he sinned and thus sinned with him. This is the same kind of reasoning the bible uses at Hebrews 7:9-10 to make the point that Levi paid tithes to Melchizedek centuries before he was even conceived:

(Hebrews 7:9, 10) . . .And, if I may use the expression, through Abraham even Le′vi who receives tithes has paid tithes, 10 for he was still in the loins of his forefather when Mel·chiz′e·dek met him.

This argument also appears to be supported by what Romans 5:12 says:

(Romans 5:12) . . .That is why, just as through one man sin entered into the world and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men because they had all sinned. . .

Notice this text says all men had sinned - past tense. How is that possible when there are future unborn generations who have not yet lived and sinned voluntarily? I think the text is essentially alluding to the fact that when Adam sinned all mankind - all unborn mankind yet to be conceived - sinned with him because of being in his loins at the time. So the bible seems to be suggesting that all mankind sinned with Adam and were cursed with Adam. Adam served as a proxy agent for all mankind just as Hebrews 7:9,10 suggests that Abraham served as a proxy agent for Levi, so that Levi paid tithes to Melchizedek.

Saying that all mankind was cursed by God because of the sin of Adam doesn't paint God in the rosy light the JWs want him painted. The word curse also has a ring of superstition to it. So to avoid these. The JWs use the term inherited sin. People know about inheriting traits from their parents so the term inherited and the use of the genetic illustration, give the teaching an air of science to it, dispelling much of the superstitious connotations. It also sort of distances God from it because now death is seen as something we inherited from Adam as opposed to a curse imposed on us by God.

22

Getting JWs To Think By Using Their Own Tactics On Them.

by Island Man in

i've been thinking that an effective way to expose the idiocy and vacuousness of jwism is to use it right back on them when they come to your door.

say you're a fader and you've moved to the territory of a different circuit where the jws there don't know your jw background.

when they come knocking at your door, just put on the jw mindset and pretend to yourself that the jws at the door are not jws but members of a "false religion.".

Island Man

I've been thinking that an effective way to expose the idiocy and vacuousness of JWism is to use it right back on them when they come to your door.

Say you're a fader and you've moved to the territory of a different circuit where the JWs there don't know your JW background. When they come knocking at your door, just put on the JW mindset and pretend to yourself that the JWs at the door are not JWs but members of a "false religion."

When they offer you literature, you tell them something JWish like: "Sorry I don't accept literature of other religions. I don't believe in interfaith."

When the JW says it's all based on the bible you say: "Well, I know for a fact that my religion is based on the bible and I have the truth, and since Ephesians 4 says there is only one faith . . . your religion can't also be the truth and so I can't accept your religion's literature which contains false religious lies -- no offense."

Let's say you tell them you're a Catholic and they start mentioning the Catholic pedophile scandal that was prominent in the news a few years ago. You respond by saying: "These are just satanic lies by our opposers. You can't believe everything you hear in the media."

If they point out the unscriptural catholic teaching of purgatory you just tell them that catholics no longer believe that -- that the light of truth gets brighter with time just as Proverbs 4:18 says and so even if there might be some errors in current catholic teaching, God will refine the understanding of the church in time and so you will not be disloyal to God's catholic organization by leaving the religion just because of the errors of imperfect men of the past."

If you say you're a catholic and one of the JWs at your door say they used to be a catholic, you can say: "You're an apostate! I don't want to hear anything you have to say! You're only here to draw me away from serving God as part of his earthly Catholic organization!"

By now you get the drift. When you use JW reasoning to counter JWs efforts to preach to you, you either force the JWs to confront the idiocy of their own reasoning (if the particular JWs at the door are smart enough to see the similarity) or you force them to argue against their own reasoning in an effort to try to reach you. It's a lose-lose situation for them.

33

This Year's Memorial

by TD in

jw
friends

perhaps i'm just getting older and crankier, but it really seems to me that the jw faith is deteriorating at an accelerated rate.. case in point: this year's memorial talk.

it was one of the most incoherent messes i've ever heard.

(and i've heard a lot of memorial talks over the last 50 years....).

Island Man

"..the governing body watches the moon."

They're werewolves in sheep's clothing. lol.

25

Today's (4/12) WT study - all about Jesus

by OneEyedJoe in

today's watchtower study article is all about jesus.

this stuck out to me after a year of hanging out on here where one frequent point of criticism is that jws claim to be christians but never talk about jesus.. anyone think it's a coincidence that today was the "special talk" follow-up to the memorial?

i think not - this is the most attended sunday meeting of the year, complete with many ubms, studies, and miscellaneous other potential victims who have been subjected to a coordinated effort to pressure them into attending.

Island Man

I agree with your analysis, OneEyedJoe.

But I think they also shot themselves in the foot in the process by also drawing attention to their cooky teaching that Jesus is Michael the Archangel (paragraphs 5 and 6).

Also, it doesn't sound right that they love to refer to Jesus as a "spirit creature" (paragraph 5). In modern use, the word creature very often carries the connotation of that which is animalistic, sub-human. "Creature" is what you use to refer to some strange animal or insect you encounter in your backyard. "Creature" is the word used to refer to some weird looking alien being in a sci-fi movie. That Watchtower continues to use the term "spirit creature" to refer to Jesus betrays their very low emotional intelligence and their lack of genuine esteem for Jesus. Why not call him a "spirit person"? They have to use the word creature because of their paranoid anti-trinitarian fixation on making the point that he was created - even when referring to Jesus in a context far removed from the topic of his nature as a subordiinate creation of God. Doctrine takes primacy over honoring Jesus in an emotionally intelligent manner.

11

February 15, 2015 Watchtower Tells Lies About Bible Jesus!

by Island Man in

page 6, paragraph 7 dishonestly makes the following 2 claims about jesus:.

"he never called undue attention to himself.

instead, he directed all glory to his father.".

Island Man

By the way, my last comment about Jesus insulting the religious leaders raises a very troubling implication for bible-believing christians who believe Jesus was sinless. Here's why:

(Acts 23:3-5) . . .Then Paul said to him: “God is going to strike you, you whitewashed wall. Do you at one and the same time sit to judge me in accord with the Law and, transgressing the Law, command me to be struck?” 4 Those standing by said: “Are you reviling the high priest of God?” 5 And Paul said: “Brothers, I did not know he was high priest. For it is written, ‘You must not speak injuriously of a ruler of your people.’”

In this text Paul acknowledges that it's a sin to speak injuriously of a religious leader. But isn't this what Jesus did time and time again in Matthew 23?

11

February 15, 2015 Watchtower Tells Lies About Bible Jesus!

by Island Man in

page 6, paragraph 7 dishonestly makes the following 2 claims about jesus:.

"he never called undue attention to himself.

instead, he directed all glory to his father.".

Island Man

I forgot to mention the fact that Jesus would viciously insult the religious leaders, calling them "offspring of vipers", "hypocrites", "blind guides" and "fools". But to be fair, they weren't his disciples, were they? But it just goes to show that a man who would publicly insult others that way would have no qualms about talking down to his disciples.

11

February 15, 2015 Watchtower Tells Lies About Bible Jesus!

by Island Man in

page 6, paragraph 7 dishonestly makes the following 2 claims about jesus:.

"he never called undue attention to himself.

instead, he directed all glory to his father.".

Island Man

Page 6, paragraph 7 dishonestly makes the following 2 claims about Jesus:

1. "He never called undue attention to himself. Instead, he directed all glory to his Father."

In contrast to the above claim, notice what the Bible actually says about Jesus:

(John 6:35) . . .Jesus said to them: “I am the bread of life. He that comes to me will not get hungry at all, and he that exercises faith in me will never get thirsty at all.
(John 8:12) . . .Therefore Jesus spoke again to them, saying: “I am the light of the world. He that follows me will by no means walk in darkness, but will possess the light of life.”
(John 8:23, 24) . . .So he went on to say to them: “YOU are from the realms below; I am from the realms above. YOU are from this world; I am not from this world. 24 Therefore I said to YOU, YOU will die in YOUR sins. For if YOU do not believe that I am [he], YOU will die in YOUR sins.”
(John 5:22, 23) . . .For the Father judges no one at all, but he has committed all the judging to the Son, 23 in order that all may honor the Son just as they honor the Father.. . .
(Matthew 11:28) . . .Come to me, all YOU who are toiling and loaded down, and I will refresh YOU.
(John 11:4) . . .But when Jesus heard it he said: “This sickness is not with death as its object, but is for the glory of God, in order that the Son of God may be glorified through it.”
(John 11:25, 26) . . .Jesus said to her: “I am the resurrection and the life. He that exercises faith in me, even though he dies, will come to life; 26 and everyone that is living and exercises faith in me will never die at all. . .
(John 14:6) . . .Jesus said to him: “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.
(Matthew 12:42) . . .The queen of the south will be raised up in the judgment with this generation and will condemn it; because she came from the ends of the earth to hear the wisdom of Sol′o·mon, but, look! something more than Sol′o·mon is here.

Never drew attention to himself, my foot! It seems like Jesus was always saying 'I am this and I am that, and if you don't accept it and follow me then bad on you!'

2. "He never talked down to his disciples or made them feel inferior"
In contrast to this claim, notice what the bible actually says about Jesus:

(Matthew 16:23) . . .But, turning his back, he said to Peter: “Get behind me, Satan! You are a stumbling block to me, because you think, not God’s thoughts, but those of men.”

(Luke 17:10) . . .So YOU, also, when YOU have done all the things assigned to YOU, say, ‘We are good-for-nothing slaves. What we have done is what we ought to have done.’”

(Matthew 17:15-17) . . .“Lord, have mercy on my son, because he is an epileptic and is ill, for he falls often into the fire and often into the water; 16 and I brought him to your disciples, but they could not cure him.” 17 In reply Jesus said: “O faithless and twisted generation, how long must I continue with YOU? How long must I put up with YOU? Bring him here to me.”

(Matthew 15:15, 16) . . .By way of response Peter said to him: “Make the illustration plain to us.” 16 At this he said: “Are YOU also yet without understanding?

(Matthew 26:40) . . .And he came to the disciples and found them sleeping, and he said to Peter: “Could YOU men not so much as watch one hour with me?

(Matthew 7:11) . . .Therefore, if YOU, although being wicked, know how to give good gifts to YOUR children, how much more so will YOUR Father who is in the heavens give good things to those asking him?

(Mark 10:24) . . .“Children, how difficult a thing it is to enter into the kingdom of God!

Didn't talk down to his disciples, my foot! As the above examples show, Jesus often expressed exasperation with his followers in the form of pejorative rhetorical questions like 'are you without understanding?' and 'how long must I put up with you?', for their slowness in grasping matters and for their lack of faith. He also talked down to his followers by calling them children, calling them wicked, and encouraging them to have a very low estimation of themselves as being 'good-for-nothing slaves'.

33

This Year's Memorial

by TD in

jw
friends

perhaps i'm just getting older and crankier, but it really seems to me that the jw faith is deteriorating at an accelerated rate.. case in point: this year's memorial talk.

it was one of the most incoherent messes i've ever heard.

(and i've heard a lot of memorial talks over the last 50 years....).

Island Man

The only good thing I noticed in this year's memorial is that the speaker did not opportunistically use the memorial of Jesus' death as a recruitment tool by inviting audience members to study the bible with JWs.

23

HBO Scientology Documentary

by tresdecu in

jw
friends

has anyone else seen the hbo scientology documentary 'going clear' - wow...cults are just mind-blowing you wonder how people can fall for that garbage, then you (those of us former/fading jws) look in the mirror.. i would love for someone to make a major jw documentary like this.

'going clear' is getting a lot of press.

poor tom cruise...he looks like quite the whack job in it too.

Island Man

Did anyone else notice the parallels between the personality of L. Ron Hubbard and J. F. Rutherford?